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Jason Reis
"TITLE:
"Increasing Verbal Behavior".
Tuesday, April 13th
at
9 p.m. (Eastern), Note portions of the text have been edited for spelling and
grammatical errors, while other text with errors was left in tact in the context of the
chat.
Rebecca says, "Hello and Welcome to our talkAutism Specialty Chat. If you have a question for our Host Speaker, Just type a “?” in the room. The names will be taken in order received. Hold your questions until you are cued by the Moderator. Also, Please keep chit chat down to a minimal, unless ok'd by the Host. Thank You and enjoy your stay! " Jason Reis says, "ok no problem"
Rebecca says, " we can begin, with a brief intro from Jason"
Vande says, "?"
Jason Reis says, "Ok well I will first like to Thank Mark, Rebecca, Sharon for having me do this chat for Talk autism"
Phrogger says, "hi sunny"
MommO enters.
Jason Reis says, "To give a little background on myself: My name as you all guess by now is Jason Reis I have 16 years exp working with children dx with Autism and am formally"
Jason Reis says, "educated in behavioral psychology"
MommO says, "Hi"
Sunny says, "hi there"
MommO says, "Hi Jason"
Jason Reis says, "My specialty is addressing aggression and teaching communication skills"
Jason Reis says, "Hello MommO"
Jason Reis says, "I would also like to briefly mention my new
organization which is a registered not for profit Autism Networks (www.autismnetworks.com)"
Jason Reis says, "whose goal is to educate all about autism and methods used to teach those with autism"
Jason Reis says, "I think that's enough info about myself though since most of you I am sure read about me on the website"
Moderator says, " vande you have the first question"
Phrogger says, "welcome Jason :) glad you are here."
Vande says, "When teaching new signs with verbal behavior, do you introduce them in
direct trial format ever?"
Vande says, "I am new to the methods of VB"
Jason Reis says, "no problem that is a good question"
Phrogger says, "?"
Jason Reis says, "the way I teach signs is first I teach the sign in gross motor imitation to ensure the child can do the sign then I teach the sign incidentally within a manding format"
Jason Reis says, "so to answer the question"
Jason Reis says, "no do not use dtt to get the child to sign"
Jason Reis says, "have the child first learn how to physically do the sign via gross motor imitation (in dtt) then have him mand for the item via sign"
Macko says, "?"
Jason Reis says, "did that answer your question vande"
Jason Reis says, "I am trying to type fast"
Vande says, "Yes, sometimes I feel I am introducing so many signs in the natural environ. it seems confusing!"
Vande says, "The child seems to over generalize one new sign for everything"
Jason Reis says, "I was going to say...."
Jason Reis says, "if you are doing signs in the NET then most lily they are functional and that is the best way to introduce them"
Jason Reis says, "but I would put a limit on how many targets you work on at one time so for example I only do 2 targets max per program"
Vande says, "That makes sense!"
Jason Reis says, "Hope that helps Vande"
Vande says, "yes, thank you"
Moderator says, "phrogger you have the next question"
Jason Reis says, "Next question"
Phrogger says, "the problem is when I dont understand my BF's son, he is becoming more and more violent"
Jason Reis says, "yes that is a typical behavior we see."
Phrogger says, "he has the vocab of a two year old but is almost 5"
Jason Reis says, "is he verbal or does he use a alternative device"
Phrogger says, "I need help in dealing with the violence but still encouraging the speech and his progression"
Phrogger says, "verbal"
Phrogger says, "just got the autism diagnosis last week as a matter of fact but has been in speech therapy for 6 months and his temper is getting worse"
Jason Reis says, "totally verbal or does he have any difficulty with verbal behavior"
Jason Reis says, "he is how old again?"
Phrogger says, "4 1/2"
Phrogger says, "not sure what the differences are, still new to all of this"
Jason Reis says, "well I would start in the typical AVB fashion and that is to teach him to request his wants needs and only work on requesting"
Naomis says, "?"
Jason Reis says, "So what I would do is all through out your sons day have him request for things"
Jason Reis says, "you can accept a close approximation of the item he wants"
Vande says, "?"
Phrogger says, "that stuff i am getting"
Jason Reis says, "Phrogger does he get full home services?"
Phrogger says, "it is more when he is trying to express something, like
tattling etc."
Phrogger says, "not sure yet, I hope he will, we are waiting to see what services he will get"
Jason Reis says, "for your son I feel and I have to say i do not know him or his skills but sounds like you should only work on verbal imitation and manding (requesting) skills"
Phrogger says, "the dr. finally just gave him the dx"
Jason Reis says, "at this current time"
Phrogger says, "not even sure what that all is"
Jason Reis says, "ok"
Phrogger says, "requesting like asking for what he wants, he can do that"
Jason Reis says, "ok so when is it that he is having the anger behavior?"
Phrogger says, "it is when he is just talking in general, if I can't understand his because his articulation is so poor he is becoming violent"
Phrogger says, "like if he sees something on tv and he is trying to tell me about it, he gets angry if I don't understand"
Jason Reis says, "so then you might want to use a picture communication as a secondary form of communication to help him get his communication understood"
Phrogger says, "or if he was telling about his day and I ask him to repeat he gets violent"
Phrogger says, "we can try that possible"
Jason Reis says, "yes it sounds like this would be an easy fix if he were to have a secondary form of communication to make his words more understandable"
Phrogger says, "this is all just so new, it is over whelming i guess for all of us, poor kid is probably having a worse time then we are"
Jason Reis says, "I would recommend PECS (PECS.COM) I think it is so you would have him say what ever he is
going to say and then hand you also the appropriate picture"
Phrogger says, "ok makes sense, we can do that"
Jason Reis says, "so then he would be understood"
Vande says, "What about teaching non verabl behaviors as well, like responding to "show me" by pointing and pictures, physically guiding you to what he wants?"
Jason Reis says, "speak with your sons speech therapist about using a "secondary communication system" along with his verbal spe"
Jason Reis says, "speech"
Phrogger says, "ok I can do that, :)"
Vande says, "paired with speech"
Jason Reis says, "thats what she would be doing via PECS"
Jason Reis says, "(pictures)"
Phrogger says, "well if he wants something and I dont' know what it is, he just gets it himself"
Jason Reis says, "you want to get away from having him always guide you to what he wants because what if what he wants is not physically in the house"
Phrogger says, "he is TOO independant, but it is just he gets so frustrated with communication"
Naomis says, "as you are with him more phrogger, you will understand better also"
Jason Reis says, "thats why you should use his speech along with a picture communication system"
Phrogger says, "yeah that makes sense, he is still getting used to me (he is my step son, not bio son) and I am just trying to learn his cues, but the pictures might help both of us"
MommO says, "My son has learned to spell very well which has helped us with understanding him"
Moderator says, "macko you have the next question"
Jason Reis says, "Phrogger the more you are with him the more you will learn about him"
Macko says, "how do you handle the coordination of signs between home and school when the child uses 'modified' signs? any suggestions?"
Phrogger says, "thanks I hope so :)"
Jason Reis says, "here is a rule of thumb on modifying signs"
Jason Reis says, "I modify signs alot as I work with children with apraxia and prro fine motor skills"
Jason Reis says, "When modifying any sign try to keep it in very close approximation of what the actual sign is also you should already have a book that goes"
Jason Reis says, "back to school and to your house"
Jason Reis says, "write in that an explination of how to do the sign"
Jason Reis says, "you should also or one of your sons home staff should make visits to the school throughout"
Macko says, "we do but the explanations seem to get changed anyway"
Jason Reis says, "the year to see how things are going and to ensure consistency"
Vande says, "Take photos of someone doing the sign"
Jason Reis says, "what do you mean the explanations seem to get changed anyway?"
Jason Reis says, "photos don't really help as they are still pictures"
Jason Reis says, "so they only show the first hand position or the last not the movement which needs to be done"
Macko says, "i guess the staff often insists on 'purist' versions and we accept more modified just to get him to mand"
Macko says, "then the sign will be extinguished"
Jason Reis says, "well it is very inportant that the method and versions on how he communicates are 100% the same across all"
Jason Reis says, "locations"
Macko says, "yes it's a real problem"
Jason Reis says, "monthly team meetings are also a good time for your home staff to show all others how to do the current sign they are teaching"
Macko says, "we do meet but in everyday life, new signs will get intro'ed in NET and then confusion happens"
Jason Reis says, "well when your in NET you should still be recording data"
Naomis says, "we had a bi weekly meeting with out school staff to communicate thing likes this"
Macko says, "i see"
Vande says, "We've taken some videos and sent back and forth with our team - it helps"
Jason Reis says, "when your in NET and the instructor impliments a new sign it needs to be recorded somewhere"
Macko says, "ok - i guess we need to work on our own communication skills some more"
Jason Reis says, "and then others need to review those sheets before working with the child so they will know what signs and or new signs where introduced"
Jason Reis says, "Just remember every target and response in all teaching sessions need to be defined fully so all staff understand and will"
Macko says, "ok thanks"
Jason Reis says, "be able to reinforce the correct response"
Jason Reis says, "other wise (last response on this question)"
Jason Reis says, "you could make what is sometimes called A B schedules where every instructor gets assigned a few"
Jason Reis says, "signs to teach"
Macko says, "hmmm interesting idea"
Jason Reis says, "then when they are tought then instructors demonstrate the sign they just tought and it is switched with the other instructor"
Jason Reis says, "for generalization purposes"
Jason Reis says, "We sometimes do this when teaching early verbal communication since people tend to articulate differently"
Jason Reis says, "naturally"
Jason Reis says, "Hope those ideas and comments help Macko"
Macko says, "yes thank you"
Moderator says, naomis you have the next question"
Naomis says, "my oldest (now 6) was started on DTT (now verbal), but my youngest (3)was started on VB, and we have been working on manding like crazy, and have started tacting but what is the next direction to take?"
Jason Reis says, "Ok wel my big issues is that people feel they have to do "DTT" or "VB"
Jason Reis says, "and you do not have to do one or the other"
Jason Reis says, "you should have a mixed session"
Jason Reis says, "so within your session you should do some dtt and some net teaching"
Jason Reis says, "all within the same 2 or 3 hour session"
Naomis says, "right, but my oldest was a very compliant learner, and my youngest is not, lol, he works much better in a less formal environ"
Jason Reis says, "ok well if he is strong at madning and is able to tact well I would move on to early intra-verbals"
Naomis says, "and I do not want to be in the position of forcing him to stay at a table"
Jason Reis says, "in the form of fill in the blank words to songs"
Naomis says, "ok, any other directions to look at?"
Jason Reis says, "that is fine then you dont have to sit down and start doing alot of dtt"
Jason Reis says, "just know when he gets older alot of his work will tend to bring him to the table for math reading ect"
Jason Reis says, "I would also start doing RFFC tacting"
Naomis says, "right, he is getting more compliant as he learns more, it is funny"
Naomis says, "like point to the animal, to the vehicle?"
Jason Reis says, "no like point to the thing that has wings or give me the one that fly's"
Naomis says, "ok"
Jason Reis says, "you should be teaching all 4 R F F C 's at the same time"
Naomis says, "thank you that was very helpful"
Jason Reis says, "don't only teach one at a time"
Naomis says, "ok"
Jason Reis says, "Also you can do ALOT of one step commands to get him up and about"
Moderator says, "vande you have the next question"
Vande says, "I've recently begun VB with a child and it has been a great improvement. However, I was told to "follow his lead", won't this cause noncompliance in the future when a demand is placed on him? Is there a rule of thumb to follow to a ratio of DTT and VB?"
Vande says, "What is RFFC?"
Naomis says, "all 4? receptive by 1 form, 2 function, 3 class, right?"
Jason Reis says, "ok first let me explain what RFFC is then I will explain your other question"
Naomis says, "sry"
Jason Reis says, "I am sorry it is 3 not 4"
Naomis says, "whew, ty, lol"
Jason Reis says, "Naomis ty"
Jason Reis -)
Naomis says, ";D"
Jason Reis says, "form can also be considered feature"
Jason Reis says, "is that understandable vande"
Jason Reis says, "so you would ask a child to give you something based on its function, feature, or the class it belongs to"
Vande says, "I'm still unsure about what you meant by teach 4 RFFC's at the same time"
Jason Reis says, "ok I meant this"
Vande says, "Okay, thats better"
Jason Reis says, "(its 3 not 4 by the way my mistake) you should select an item like lets say airplane and teach the features functions and class"
Jason Reis says, "of that item all at the same time"
Jason Reis says, "you would not only teach a function of an item and then master it then teach the class of an item"
Jason Reis says, "you should teach it all at one time"
Vande says, "The child I am working with is a beginner, we have just begun recep. object ID"
Vande says, "I don't think he would understand class and function"
Jason Reis says, "Follow his lead I feel is more at the begining so let me explain cause many people are told that and never really explained what it means"
Vande says, "He has difficulty with some basic imitation"
Jason Reis says, "ok well Vande with an early learner you would be first starting with basic object id anyway and teach all the function"
Jason Reis says, "and all that later"
Vande says, "Nobody has!"
Jason Reis says, "ok so let me explain something"
Jason Reis says, "when you first start programing you are not the "provider of all good things" your the provider of work and everything I dont like"
Jason Reis says, "so at the start we say follow the childs lead and what you will do is pair yourself with reinforcment"
Jason Reis says, "which is to say get yourself to become the "provider of all good things""
Jason Reis says, "so that way the child will learn that when your around I will get better access to/longer access to or"
Jason Reis says, "a better selection of reinforcment"
Jason Reis says, "and you will be "cool""
Jason Reis says, "then you slowly introduce commands onto him"
Jason Reis says, "still he has most of the control of the session"
Vande says, "I've been with him for about a year, we have built a pretty good rapport and since VB, behaviors have decreased"
Jason Reis says, "pure nnet teaching really is what it is"
Jason Reis says, "ok good then at this point your sessions should become more balanced meaning you start to gain control of more of the s"
Jason Reis says, "session"
Jason Reis says, "you may let him select (and should let him select) what to work on in what order"
Jason Reis says, "and even where to work"
Vande says, "now, even little demands like "come here" causes avoidance"
Jason Reis says, "and you should also let the child choose his reinforcers other then that the rest is in control by you"
Jason Reis says, "then you need to stop programing and repair yourself"
Jason Reis says, "remember keeping yourself as a reinforce is an ungoing thing"
Jason Reis says, "you must constently ensure you are seen as the provider of all good things"
Jason Reis says, "other wise the child will surely not follow your commands"
Jason Reis says, "Skinner once stated a ratio but it was never really publisjed but you should do something along the line of maybe 60%easy and the rest hard work"
Jason Reis says, "and then slowly chage it to be the other way around"
Vande says, "he is very accustomed to receiving lots of primary reiforcers in school - but I'm trying to be more reinforcing!"
Vande says, "I'm getting there!"
Jason Reis says, "primary reinforcers are ok just make sure they are not your cruch"
Jason Reis says, "is he on a token board or something"
Vande says, "No - I do not like relying on them at all!"
Jason Reis says, "why they are very similar to what you and I work on"
Vande says, "No token board"
Jason Reis says, "remember we all work on a token economy so why should our kids not?"
Jason Reis says, "you can use something like a token board so he can see when he is getting reinforcment"
Vande says, "He is very low functioning - I don't know if he would understand"
Jason Reis says, "and when he will soon be done"
Vande says, "I usually put the reinforcing in his view"
Jason Reis says, "well then stick with the primary's for now and just make sure your sessions are a mix of easy and hard stuff"
Jason Reis says, "also never do like 2 hard programs in a row do an easy program then a hard on then an easyone like that"
Jason Reis says, "hope this helps"
Vande says, "thanks"
Moderator says, "Jason I would like to take this time to say THANK YOU for a great chat, and hope that you will be back for another one soon."
Jason Reis says, "Yes I will Also Sharene my speech Pathologist indicated to me she would like to do a chat"
MommO says, "Thank you Jason, I learned alot!"
Jason Reis says, "I can still take questions"
Jason Reis says, "if anyone has them"
Moderator says, "anyone have another question??"
Jason Reis says, "since we are talking about my favorate subject"
Rebecca smiles.
MommO says, "Jason, Ron will contact you about another chat"
Jason Reis says, "ok Great"
Rebecca says, "We would love to have you back ;)"
Macko says, "thanks and nite all"
Jason Reis says, "thank you I enjoyed doing the chat"
Rebecca says, "Nice turn out Jason, great to have you with us"
Rebecca says, "night macko"
Jason Reis says, "thank you all for your questions and hope the answers helped"
Loganr176 says, "my son is five and repeats a lot is there something i can do to modify this?"
Rebecca says, "transcript will be available asap"
Moderator says, "Jason did you get logans question?"
Jason Reis says, "echolia is actually a good thing but it depends you might"
Jason Reis says, "yes"
Jason Reis says, "explain more how he repeats alot"
Jason Reis says, "give me an example"
Loganr176 says, "he was speech delayed and is receiving services at school"
Jason Reis says, "ok"
Loganr176 says, "he only started to speak last year"
Loganr176 says, "everytime you say something he reprerats what you say"
Jason Reis says, "ok and how do you mean he repeats alot do you mean he always repeats the questions presented to him"
Jason Reis says, "can he read?"
Loganr176 says, "yes, he repeats the questions and statements directed at him"
Jason Reis says, "ok is he able to read?"
Loganr176 says, "is this a good thing?"
Rebecca . o O ( sounds like hes trying to process them? )
Loganr176 says, "no, he cannot read yet"
Jason Reis says, "he might be trying to process what he is hearing or maybe just wants to practice how to say those things called words"
Rebecca nods solemnly.
Loganr176 says, "will the repetiton ever stop?"
Jason Reis says, "it sounds like you need to develop a prompt to alert him to know what he needs to say"
Jason Reis says, "and not repeat"
Guest184 says, "thanks Jason...hope to see you back soon!"
Jason Reis says, "it might stop with out intervention especially since he is so young"
Jason Reis says, "thanks you guest184"
Loganr176 says, "for example, if i say "say goodnight b, he'll say, "say goodnight b""
Jason Reis says, "so he repeats the question and then answers it or"
Loganr176 says, "no he repeats the question and i try to get him to answer it"
Jason Reis says, "is their a delay with his repeating or does the second you say it he says it"
Rebecca says, "i have a 4 yr old niece, average child,who repeats everything she hears and says... they call it repetative learning, something new out perhaps?"
Loganr176 says, "but am usually unsuccesful"
Loganr176 says, "there is a delay"
Rebecca says, "seems to be the new trend, even in a normal functioning child"
Jason Reis says, "well their is research out about children who repeate what they hear so they can better process it or because they like the way it sounds"
Jason Reis says, "so then it sounds like the child might thing repeating the question is suppose to be done"
Loganr176 says, "i would like him to develop conversational speech--is this possible in autistic children?"
Jason Reis says, "he needs to be tought to just listen and responde without repeating"
Jason Reis says, "yes it is"
Jason Reis says, "conversational language is possible in some individuals with autism"
Loganr176 says, "HOW DO U GET THEM TO JUST LISTEN AND NOT RESPOND?"
Rebecca smiles.
Jason Reis says, "well doing a listening program would hel["
Rebecca attempts to comfort Loganr176.
Jason Reis says, "where you would teach the child to sit with his/her mouth closed and just listen"
Loganr176 says, "can u suggest a listening program--what is this???"
Jason Reis says, "via modeled prompting and if needed physical prompting"
Jason Reis says, "well their is actually a program called "The listening Program" Erica Wick" is one of the publishers"
Rebecca says, "Logans, check out our past transcripts of chats also..."
Jason Reis says, "but I would not buy one of those I would just work on for example reading him a stroy"
Loganr176 says, "i will chewck this out asap!!!"
Jason Reis says, "by first making an SD "Sit Quite" or say "Quite mouth""
Jason Reis says, "then then you read a sentence to him"
Jason Reis says, "if he is quite then he gets a tickle or other reinforcment"
Jason Reis says, "try this procedure Logan and that might help"
Loganr176 says, "so, are u stating that eventually, this repetition will go away?"
Jason Reis says, "it may or may not hard to tell without knowing the situation first hand"
Nickanz says, "hello all"
Rebecca says, "Thanks Jason!"
Jason Reis says, "hello nikanz"
Jason Reis says, "your welcome Loganr176"
Nickanz says, "so whats the subject here today??"
Jason Reis says, "I will stay until 10:30 (10 more minutes) if others have any questions"
Jason Reis says, "we are speaking about verbal behavior analysis"
Nickanz says, "Oh...............been there done that many years ago now with ds"
Rebecca says, "Details on Jason A. Reis *click here*"
Jason Reis says, "O"
Nickanz says, "DS is 23 yrs old now"
Rebecca says, "nik, how old is child now, any successes?"
Rebecca says, "on speach?"
Nickanz says, "he is doing very well"
Jason Reis says, "great"
Rebecca says, "thats great!"
Rebecca says, "encouraging!"
Nickanz says, "he started talking at the age of 3 yrs with sign and pictures etc"
Rebecca says, "ahh thats great!"
Jason Reis says, "thats great"
Nickanz says, "Now he talks a hind leg off a donkey"
Sunny says, "and he has no problem with speech now ?"
Rebecca says, "any aid for the frustrated parent? input?"
Jason Reis says, "lol thats good though"
Nickanz says, "the speech teacher tried to push PECS on my son but i would not hear of it!!!"
Moderator says, "Jason...regarding the picture boards, what one would you recommend and where would you go to get one"
Nickanz says, "No............ but he still looks away when speaking but thats life"
Nickanz says, "i believe that speech begets speech!"
Jason Reis says, "you should read the research on PECS in JABA and JAVB"
Jason Reis says, "I like a cd picture program called Picture This"
Nickanz says, "DS has autistic tenderies"
Sunny says, "can that be found on the website jason ?"
Jason Reis says, "you can get it at a company called Different Roads to Learning (I make no kick backs by teling you about them)"
Nickanz says, "i am soooooo sorry that i came in on the tail end of this chat!!!!!"
Jason Reis says, "Thank you rebecca and for all your help"
Moderator says, "My son used one a long time ago, that when you put the pictures on the board you recorded the word so when they touched it it said the word outloud, is that like what you are talking about?"
Jason Reis says, "Its ok Loganr176 I am able to stay a few more minutes"
Sunny says, "that would be good moderator. where did you find one like that"
Nickanz says, "I am doing a workshop next Tuesday on Fragile X Syndrome.......... for small providers"
Moderator says, "his school had it sunny"
Sunny says, "ahh"
Loganr176 says, "i have so many speech concerns regarding my son--does anyone know of an excellent speech pathologist in T?"
Jason Reis says, "Picture This is just a clip art program you can use to print out pictures"
Loganr176 says, "i mean CT."
Mark says, "have you posted on Help Wanted on TalkAutism.org Logan?"
Jason Reis says, "where in CT are you"
Moderator says, "ok jason thank you"
Loganr176 says, "no, but i will try it--thank u"
Loganr176 says, "in fairfield county"
Mark says, "and you can search the expert find there too logan....."
Loganr176 says, "Speech Theapy is the best way to go"
Loganr176 says, "We used to do mouth excerises and so on"
Jason Reis says, "hmm well I will keep my ear out for one I am doing a workshop for speech pathologists i"
Jason Reis says, "in just north of bridgeport"
Jason Reis says, "so I ill ask around"
Jason Reis says, "if you give me your email address"
Loganr176 says, "thank u jason"
Loganr176 says, "Signing and using speech is good also"
Jason Reis says, "Nikanz you mean prompt therapy?"
Jason Reis says, "Does anyone have any last questions"
Loganr176 says, "The more speach therapy one can get for their kids the better we used to have 4 days aweek"
Sunny says, "thank you jason. it was really interesting"
Jason Reis says, "yes I agree nikanz"
Moderator says, "Jason truely hope we have you with us again soon"
Loganr176 says, "thank you jason!!!"
Jason Reis says, "Thanks all and I just want to mention one last time Autism Networks is my orginization which provides workshops in"
Jason Reis says, "various subjects around the states"
Jason Reis says, "Thank you all"
Mark says, "thank you for coming Jason"
Jason Reis says, "I really need to be heading off (I have an early start tomarrow)"
Moderator says, "thaNK YOU"
Mark says, "understood, sleep well"
Sunny says, "thank you"
Jason Reis says, "Thank you Mark for having me"
Loganr176 says, "Sorry I came in at the end................ time zone here"
Loganr176 says, "goodnight all!"
Mark says, "it was our pleasure"
Jason Reis says, "Bye all"
Moderator says, "nik so are we ...it was a great chat"
Sunny says, "take care"
